| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1397
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
@CCP Rise, I'm curious to see if you feel there is any need to bring the power levels on these down at all to make the other BC's more ....whats the word i'm looking for? Used?
Used doesn't feel right but its kind of in the spirit of what I'm looking for, as right now theres no real reason to use any other BC over the Talos except for not being trained enough to use its guns. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1397
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 13:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
You know bob, you know. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1398
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 13:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:Taken as a whole, it seems CCP want Odyssey to turn pvp into a one-dimensional armour brawl, since all the other fleet types are getting systematically nerfed.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1398
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 13:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Grath, I'm not sure exactly what you mean about making room for the other BCs more. I feel like for the most part like combat BC have a very different role than attack BC, so one doesn't really tread hard on the other. Thats not always true, of course, but I wonder maybe what environment you're talking about and what sort of outcome you would be looking for?
Well currently, if you can use large guns, there is no reason to fly a brutix over say a talos. Honestly theres no reason to fly a Vaga over a Talos the ship is (in its current form) so incredibly broken with its extreme agility and dps projection. Naga's aren't as agile and deadlyl but still do a fair bit of damage.
Normally broken things in EVE only become really evident when placed in the fleet setting and mass used, and the attack BC's are pretty much the exact opposite. Fleets of them really don't matter, they get carved up because they're so thin (intentional design) that makes them much less attractive than Battleship fleets.
However in the smaller gang and lowsec setting they start to show their skewed nature by outclassing most smaller and larger things to the point where its near silly. At the moment in smaller gang engagements or solo roaming the best ship to fly is hands down the Talos, flying anything else isn't because its better at the job, but because you like variety, there is nothing that compares to its performance pound for pound.
I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across in words that make sense but I'm really hoping it made some form of sense, and I am curious to see how your agility and mass changes alter the landscape, I'm just curious about the actual dps projection of these platforms and if its at a place that the balance team is happy with. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1401
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Posted - 2013.03.28 14:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Well currently, if you can use large guns, there is no reason to fly a brutix over say a talos. Honestly theres no reason to fly a Vaga over a Talos the ship is (in its current form) so incredibly broken with its extreme agility and dps projection. I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree here. In my experience you have several metrics that are all really important to what a ship is good at, and all the ships you mention have completely different allocation of those metrics. Combat BC EHP makes them a lot more ideal as tacklers/bait ships than attack BCs. So having a drake alongside your talos to hold points without getting killed is very valuable. HACs like the vaga generally are much more capable of dealing with small support. So having vaga (or deimos or zealot or even rupture) to support an attack BC by protecting it from tacklers is very valuable. Attack BC have the highest damage/projection so they are generally going to have a lot of value based on that. The prevalence of each role shifts based on a lot of things, but I don't see a direct tension between them. You don't get read for a roam and say - which ship has the most damage, lets take only those. At least thats been my experience.
And disagreeing isn't really a bad thing, I asked a question and you gave an honest and direct answer, which I appreciate.
I for one am happy that these are even being tweaked at all, so keep fighting the good fight man. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1407
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Posted - 2013.03.28 14:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Single T1 cruiser 200 km off a Naga gang? Yes, run like hell.  Seriously, you appear to be arguing that a Naga shouldn't be able to hit a cruiser as it approaches from 200 km. Actually it probably can't if you'd bothered to bring the right tool for the job - TDs or RSDs.
Please list cruisers that can lock to 200km that commonly appear in roaming gangs. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1410
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Hmmm, a few thoughts:
- The TE nerf is going to brutalize damage projection on the Talos and Tornado. I don't think that the Talos will remain workable, but the Oracle should remain ok on that front. The Tornado was never my favorite, but it'll probably remain workable if I'm in the mood for it.
- The Talos's mobility nerf is pretty brutal, but it wasn't going to be viable after the TE nerf anyway.
- The Tornado's mobility nerf is also pretty brutal but it had enough that it'll probably make it out alive on the strength of the dual web slot layout. At the very worst you can still use it for Arty gate camping.
- The Naga wasn't useful at all because it's mobility was ******* terrible. The Oracle now has it's ******* terrible mobility, which will probably kill the Oracle for me.
I guess I probably won't fly Tier 3s anymore, but there's enough other options that I'll be fine.
-Liang
Jesus christ man you act like the TE nerf is cutting the total range of the Talos by 33%,
Its not
Its losing 4km of fall off, and 1km of optimal, its not crippling the ship in anyway at all, it can still fight in exactly the same ranges it fought in before. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1410
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
Grath, you've seen me post for a really long time. Can you trust me to know what I'm talking about when I actually bother to speak anymore? I'm not against the TE nerf - I'm simply stating a fact. The Talos is no longer going to be useful to me because 4km is a really big deal to the kind of kiting Talos I fly.
I do, but I fail t see how this change alters the Talos at all.
Can it-
- Still fight out side web range - check
- Still fight outside scram range - check
- Still fight outside lach scram range - check
- Still fight outside heavy neut range - check
So though I do often times see your posting and generally you seem like you know what you're talking about, I'm going to need some kind of details as to how that very minor, and i mean VERY minor loss in range, and agility (you're not that good, you won't notice less than half a second, your internet connection wont notice it, your computer won't notice it, and no matter how good you think you are your reflexes won't notice it).
Seriously, tell me how and when, and why that loss of range makes that ship any less than it was, use specific examples.
If you can't provide actual examples of the Talos failing because of that range loss then you're acting like the same Chicken Little kind of poster that the rest of us are making fun of in that other thread.
EDIT: Looking at it, you were pushing 450 DPS paper DPS at 45, probably still 375 or better DPS at 50km, you're now looking at 450 paper DPS at 40km, and around 340 or better DPS at 50km.
So yea, while you normally post like you have a clue, if you can't show me how this ship fails with actual realistic examples due to that 4km range loss I'm calling shenanigans. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1414
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:
Some of us still like to fly solo, and don't use attack BCs just for ganking. The Talos is the only attack BC which has any sort of defense against smaller ships which can't be hit by the large guns.
I'd like to see the other attack BCs get some sort of defense against smaller ships, too, although I'm opposed to just adding drones to every ship.
You are aware that the weakness to frigates is a stated intentional design flaw?
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1415
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Posted - 2013.03.28 22:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:So yea, while you normally post like you have a clue, if you can't show me how this ship fails with actual realistic examples due to that 4km range loss I'm calling shenanigans. I'll pull up the numbers tonight after GDC. -Liang
Ok but i did all the numbers for you already, the difference at 40-50km is about 60-70 dps depending on what range you're at.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1415
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Posted - 2013.03.28 23:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:You are aware that the weakness to frigates is a stated intentional design flaw? Design flaws are meant to be fixed eventually.
I dont think you get it, its an intentional design flaw they want it to have forever. Its the trade off they make for the firepower they carry.
Have you not been following the entire process that was their creation or are you trolling me?
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1429
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Posted - 2013.03.31 08:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Grath insisted that I was being chicken little and dared me to ~poast numbers~ that showed why I hold the opinion I do.
Yea, you'll need to either A) stop trying to fight at 50km with a short raned weapon system (shortest range weapons system actually) or B) change your fit. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1433
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Posted - 2013.04.01 21:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Grath insisted that I was being chicken little and dared me to ~poast numbers~ that showed why I hold the opinion I do.
Yea, you'll need to either A) stop trying to fight at 50km with a short raned weapon system (shortest range weapons system actually) or B) change your fit. So, I guess that's you agreeing that for my purposes the Talos is getting brutalized? You can say I need to pull my range in, but again - I didn't have the range to give up. You can say that I need to change my fit, in which case the ship has other critical weaknesses. You can say I need to stop flying the ship... in which case (holy ****!) you're agreeing with me. -Liang
No, that was me politely trying not to make fun of you for telling me that losing a few km off your joke of a fit really doesn't matter and that maybe, just maybe your fit is trash, mostly because the whole 100mn AB all the thing is laughable. The ship has the 5km worth of range to give up, with ease, you're choosing not to.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1435
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Posted - 2013.04.04 02:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Nah, the hilarious thing is how many people like you that think it's a "joke fit" and then die to it. Combining the unmatched damage projection vs mitigation with scram immunity makes for a pretty boss platform. :)
-Liang
I didn't call it a joke, I called it trash.
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